If God exists then he would have to be all good, because he decides what is right and wrong. To be good is to be like God. To be evil is to disobey God aka to be like Eve. God cannot disobey himself.
Evil is only his fault in the sense that free will is his fault. Would you enjoy being a mindless robot? Well, he might have actually wanted that... Because as we know from the Bible, Eve introduced free will to the human race... But God and his angels already had it. After Adam and Eve ate the fruit, God said something along the lines of, "behold, man has become like one of us".
Is God all-knowing? I don't know. There are many verses that contradict that, for example, when God was walking around the Garden of Eden looking for Adam and saying, "where are you?" An all-knowing god would have known where Adam was.
Is he all-powerful? That I also don't know, but you have to remember the promise he made to Noah. He vowed to never destroy the human race again... And getting rid of all the evil people would eliminate a huge chunk of the human population, if not ALL of it, because everyone has sinned and to sin is to commit an evil act.
You have to understand that to humans, evil is a subjective term. We think Bin Laden was evil, he thought we were evil. Perspective matters. But what is truly evil is up to God (assuming that he exists), not us.
If God were to put an end to evil, he would only be able to do it by removing our free will.
People are going to start thinking that I'm a Christian, seeing as to how I've been defending them so much lately... But I think I may be able to help you here.
God allows evil, because he allows free will. The difference between good and evil is the same as obeying God and disobeying God.
Think of it this way, the word "good" is god with an extra O. The word "evil" used to be spelled "evel"... That's Eve with an L.
Eve introduced evil (disobedience to God) to the human race by eating the forbidden fruit. She introduced free will. God punished her and Adam, but he didn't annihilate them.
So time went on and God continued to allow humans to have free will, but he still wanted humans to obey him... But they have the option not too, which obviously doesn't make God happy. So when they got too out of control, he sent a flood... But he spared his only loyal followers, Noah and his family. God was trying to abolish evil from the earth and basically restart. After the flood was over, he made a covenant with Noah that he would never destroy the human race again.
Despite God's efforts to rebuild the human race, they eventually went back to their evil ways. If he were to destroy them again, he would be breaking his promise to Noah... So then we get the remainder of the stories from Old Testament, which were different attempts to make the human race obedient once again.
By New Testament, it seems that God has finally started to accept that humans are flawed. Disobeying the laws of Old Testament were it... If you messed up, you weren't going to be forgiven... So God decides to introduce a loophole to his laws. That loophole was Jesus Christ.
Jesus comes to fulfill the law. By dying on the cross, he circumvents the law. He allows people to be forgiven for their sins. However, there is still a law that is required to get into heaven... And that is to believe in him.
Sinning is no longer a sure-fire way to be condemned to hell. There is only one sin that is unforgivable... And that is not believing in Christ as Lord.
So if sin is now forgivable, so are acts of evil. To sin is to do something evil.
God doesn't abolish evil, because it is part of human nature... And as long as humans have free will, evil will always exist.
No, deep down inside us all, we all know when it comes to doing something wrong everyone feels guilty for when something bad happens.
Yeah... Because they've been told that what they are doing is wrong.
Also deep down inside everyone's heart it groans for a relationship with the Creator.
You know this for a fact?
Ive skimmed thw old testament. They believe in the old law or something?
Adam and Eve appeared in Old Testament. This entire debate that we are having pretty much revolves around Old Testament.
Yes, they believe in the old law... But they aren't as extreme as they used to be. I doubt you'll see them stoning homosexuals any time soon.
I think I like totes understand.
Nice. Totes magotes!
Lots. Lots of things. Did you want a list or something?
Yeah, if you don't mind. Maybe I can clear some of it up for you.
I dont really know what jews believe. He is either referring to the trinity or speaking among the angels.
Old Testament is the Hebrew Bible. If you've read Old Testament, then you know what Jews believe.
Of course.
As in, that's the only thing that sin is.
Im not completely following your theory but I am not disagreeing either. Its plausible.
What don't you follow?
No. It means that the moral code is full of subjective interpretations of good and evil. Its depends on the person.
I think the fruit just contains the ability to gain free will.
If Lucifer could rebel and wish to take the throne he had to have knowledge of good and evil.
I really wish people would stop using the name Lucifer when referring to Satan. That name is mentioned only once in the entire Bible and it doesn't say whether or not he is Satan.
Anyways, I agree. They had the option to either obey or disobey God. That is the difference between good and evil.
What does that matter? Saying us is the reference to the trinitarian rule.
Ugh... I don't know if you noticed, but after a certain point, I basically started agreeing with you. You're past that point right now lol.
The Trinitarian rule? That is such bullshit (no offense). The only reason I say that is because I've heard that argument before. If angels have knowledge of good and evil, like you said, then doesn't it make more sense that he would be talking to them and not himself? Also, if you're like me, then you think that the Bible is likely not divinely inspired. When God says "us", that takes place in Old Testament. Jews don't believe in the Trinity.
Okay?
I really wish that you caught on, because I'm pretty sure I had an eye-opening moment that I thought you would enjoy as well. But you're turning the virtual high fives I expected, into virtual sucker punches.
They have an natural born sense of right and wrong.
Then what was the purpose of the fruit?
Her act of disobeying apawned sin.
Disobeying God IS sin.
If your theory held true Eve would only be able to obey God since he gave the initial command. Eve was convince.
My theory is that Eve could only be obedient to whomever was giving orders. That's why God gave Adam rule over Eve and that's why the serpent was able to convince her so easily. Assuming that Satan was the serpent, that would explain why he chose not to appear in his natural form.
However, Eve received two conflicting orders. Don't eat the fruit and do eat the fruit. Maybe that was her first introduction to choice.
How are angels incapable of sin? Where in the bible does the claim become present?
Hey, I don't believe it! It's just a common assumption. I figured that since we were going off assumptions, I might as well bring that one up.
I don't think you are understanding. The moral code is composed of the subjective connotation of good and evil.
Subjective connotation? That's just another way of saying that the fruit gave them an emotional response to good and evil... in other words, knowledge.
God gave this moral code to all intelligent beings. Angels included. He didn't manifest evil within the sect of angels.
You're just coming up with shit now. Does the Bible ever explain that angels have this moral code?
He didn't manifest evil within the sect of angels.
I never said that he did.
God is without sin. However he is full of the knowledge of sin.
Do you know what sin means? It's going against God. God can't disobey himself. God is not only without sin... he's completely incapable of it.
Which brings me to a new idea... Good=God. To be like God is good. Evil= Disobeying God. Evil exists because God exists.
Wow... I think I just enlightened myself... you spawned the thought though lol.
Good is just another way of saying "obeying God"... And evil is another way of saying "disobeying God".
Actually, I think the word "evil" might actually have it's origin in the name Eve... which would make sense, because she's basically the symbol for disobeying God. That's strange though... she sinned before she obtained knowledge of it.
Oh damn, I just remembered... after Adam and Eve ate the fruit, God said something along the lines of, "now they're like us"... which is even more strange. Why say "us" if he can't sin? Apparently God wanted Adam and Eve to remain obedient. Once they ate the fruit, he lost control of them. Oh man! This is some crazy stuff!
God already possessed knowledge of evil.
God knew what he wanted and didn't want intelligent beings to do.
All that is required is the knowledge of evil.
Oh, I agree! But why did Eve disobey God if she hadn't attained that knowledge yet? Well, I think I've figured it out!
Eve only knew how to be obedient. She could only follow orders, no matter who was giving them. The serpent used that to his advantage. She wasn't sinning... she was just following orders... and once her and Adam ate the fruit, they gained the ability to obey or disobey anyone.
Wow... thanks for spawning some interesting ideas! Does all of that make sense to you as well?
Angels are supposedly incapable of sin. Same with God. So if evil didn't occur prior to humans, then how could anyone (or anything) have knowledge of it? Arguing that God created it is arguing that God had knowledge of something that never occurred anywhere...ever, prior to Adam and Eve.
To understand good, you have to understand evil... which Adam and Eve did not, until they ate the fruit... but apparently God did, which contradicts the argument that God is without sin. If he always existed, then he must have been alone at one time and if angels are also without sin, then when did he witness evil and attain knowledge of it? He has to know that it exists in order to make a fruit containing knowledge of it.
Corruption is more than just dishonesty. When referring to countries, it's usually a compilation of everything immoral about the country. Plus, we're talking about people, not countries... but after debating with you, it's obvious that you don't know the difference.
Yeah, sometimes people just make up shit to improve their image. Like that 16 year old mom in Omaha, whose toddler was in a video cursing like a thug. She argued that all kids cuss (a toddler? Come on...) and that she's still a good mom.
Well, she had the kid when she was 14, she lives with her grandma who was arrested for illegal possession of five guns, their home keeps getting shot up from drive bys and the toddler's father is a deceased gang member. Yeah, it sounds like that kid is living an exceptional life.
Well, Satan was supposedly an angel at one time. Apparently he was one of God's favorites. Satan ended up being a little rebellious and went against God's commands. That is strange to me, because angels are supposed to be incapable of sin... so how did Satan manage to do it?
Anyways, the modern interpretation of Satan was inspired by many different things, but the physical characteristics we associate with him are mostly from Roman polytheism.
When Christianity started taking over, they did what they could to make paganism appear evil. For example, Satan's pitchfork is actually Neptune's (Poseidon in Greek tradition) Trident. Satan is often portrayed as having goat legs and horns, those come from a Satyr (I believe they're called Faun's in Roman tradition).
Certain details from Roman polytheism were also adopted by Christianity and used in a positive light as well. For example, the sun often appears behind the heads of holy figures in Christian art and an important Roman and Greek god was adopted as the image for the Christian god... Zeus.
You remember how I brought up Venus in my earlier argument? Well, Venus has multiple symbols that represent her. One is still used today as the symbol for female, which is a circle with a cross underneath it. Her other symbol is the pentacle, also known as the five-pointed star, which is a symbol that is now associated with Satanism (there's is usually upside down). Also, in case you're interested, many astronomers say that every eight years the planet Venus forms a pentacle in the sky (each cycle stops at a different location, which when the dots are connected, forms the pentacle... or so they say). Apparently the ancients noticed that and that may be the origin of the symbol. The Greeks went off of Venus' eight year cycle for the Olympics, today we go off the half cycle (every four years). The five-pointed star was going to be the symbol for the Olympics, but due to it building up a reputation as a symbol for evil, they chose five rings instead.
Anyways, Venus had another symbol that is still important. Her sacred animal was the dove... which in Christianity, usually represents the holy spirit. It can be found above Jesus in thousands of Christian paintings.
Maybe the dove is actually "the Morning Star" watching over Jesus...
Maybe that's why we have serial killers. No one wants to blame the mom. She gets on TV and says "Oh, he was such a nice boy.
Well, there are exceptions... but ultimately the serial killer is to blame. Maybe a better analogy would have been the mother of someone who killed only one person. Think of Casey Anthony. Her parents seem like decent people, but Casey is pretty screwed up.
If she is such a great mom, how come she doesn't know?
It's not rare to see a good mom with an asshole child. Once that child grows into an adult, there's really not much she can do.
Oh, good grief... just look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Europe underNazi_domination.png
Didn't Italy's fall have more to do with Mussolini being hung in the streets? After they switched sides, the Italian Social Republic still remained allies with Nazi Germany though.
Hitler was an utter failure and his strategy of war was pathetic.
Uhhh... have you ever learned about WWII? The Nazi's and their allies took over most of Europe. Just about the only European countries that didn't fall to the Nazi's were the UK, Sweden, Switzerland, Spain and Portugal.
He ended up with only one loyal ally; an Asian Island that got nuked by emotionally damaged Americans who don't understand the concept of negotiation.
He had multiple allies, but the two who were most involved were Japan and Italy.
God evolves throughout the Bible. He goes from being visible to humans (Adam and Eve) to eventually just becoming pure spirit or without form. In polytheistic religions, the gods were obviously more powerful than humans, but they also had flaws. When polytheism started to die out and monotheism began to take it's place, all of a sudden, God changed. He became less flawed, as well as omniscient and omnipotent. Basically, an all-loving, all-powerful god was more likely to draw in followers than a religion with flawed gods.
Lucifer probably isn't Satan either. The name "Lucifer" is only mentioned once throughout the entire Bible.
Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
In many translations, it says "Lucifer, son of the morning star!" The morning star, if you don't already know, is the planet Venus. Why is that significant? Well, because the planet Venus was named after the Roman goddess (she's called Aphrodite in Greek tradition). Roman polytheism played a big role in that time period. In the Roman tradition, Venus had a son. That son looked a lot like an angel... his name was Cupid. We still use him as a symbol for love today.
Anyways, getting back to the "morning star" aka Venus... take a look at this verse found in Revelations 22:16: "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
So now we have Lucifer and Jesus connected through a bloodline... pretty crazy stuff, right?
Firstly, I don't think this is what exactly happened
Genesis 3:9 "And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?"
and even if it did happen and he genuinely asked 'Where are you?' it was merely as a symbolic test to see if Adam would reply immediately or hesitate indicating a lack of obedience to the almighty ruler and perhaps a deviance to the way of the devil
The Bible is full of verses that suggest that God is not omniscient. Here's another example:
Genesis 18:21 "I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
Also, most people assume that the serpent who tempted Eve was Satan, but in the Bible, God specifically says to the serpent, "Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life".
What you just read is the Bible's way of explaining the creation of the snake, not the punishment of Satan.
Anything can, in hindsight, be deemed to have been a succeeded plan form the beginning.
You can't deem something a success before you've accomplished it.
Hitler's plan was world domination, his plan utterly failed.
His ultimate goal was world domination, but he had smaller objectives within it. A checklist to lead to world domination. He successfully accomplished many of his objectives, as cruel as they may be.
Killing off non-Aryans was just something he left his minions to do to stir fear.
So what? They couldn't have shared objectives? He was their leader.
If you genuinely consider that a success then I hope you get skinned alive.
Uhh... who ever said that a success has to be a good thing? Hitler succeeded in killing Jews. Do you disagree?
If you are just trolling, which I hope you are, then at least you can just quietly admit defeat.
The least you can do is admit the flaws in your comprehension of the word, "succeed".
Creating something or someone doesn't make you responsible for their actions. Would you blame the mother of a serial killer?
Do you think life is bad? Assuming God is real, he did plenty of good. Plus, the tree of knowledge of good and evil suggests that evil existed prior to humans... and angels are supposedly incapable of sin (except for Satan, for some reason)... so who was evil? You can't have knowledge of something that doesn't exist. Maybe God didn't actually create evil.
