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3 points

I'm sorry, but what does that have to do with atheism?

Because Atheists only care about pleasure?

That isn't true. Again, you are judging people what you know nothing about. Which, again, isn't very Christian of you.

3 points

Money buys security, it buys experiences, it buys fun, it buys indulgence without consequence, it buys time.

You can meet the love of you life, a lovely woman with a homely face... then overhaul her.

It's simple. Money can't buy love, but it can make it.

Then again, you can be happy without money. Ie. I wouldn't be happy in a mansion.... I'd be happy in a small cottage style house. I also wonder if maybe the homeless might be very happy, and often I find myself wanting that freedom from stuff and things.

1 point

That is all you know. And yet you threw around a whole bunch of accusations at me.

I resented that. I'm sorry for calling you names, but I felt attacked by nonsense. It infuriates me to have to waste my time knowing I'm not going to change my mind, and you're not going to change your mind. So why the fuck don't we both shut up?

1 point

You can't blame a child for their mother's actions.

I conceded that someone is innocent until proven guilty. That's why he was found innocent, because they could not prove him guilty in the courts. That doesn't make it true.

Our opinion differs, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. And now we may never know.

But don't think I'm blind. I didn't read the tabloids or watch the trial. I didn't think he was amazing or a genius or an icon either. I judged him as a man and found him to be a psycho. That doesn't make me blind.

2 points

Obviously.

But you've insulted me quite a lot. I've been having to defend my opinion with facts, while you with opinions and I resent your intollerance. You insulted my opinion based on a bullshit websites and no actual knowledge of situations at organic free range farms. When I grew up on one and worked for years to stop factory farming. So bascally all you have is your opinion which you used to label me as a user and as a whole bunch of nasty things.

2 points

That is certainly not what you've been saying.

When I said, "If your opinion differs, that's fine. But I love and respect animals."

You said, "That's just a difference of opinions.

I am an abolitionist. I am against the use of animals, both human and non-human. I campaign for equal rights and compassion for all sentient creatures. That's how I'm different."

Thinking you're all holier than thou. Shove it.

1 point

How is everything you just said not speculation?

He had books of photographs of nude young boys. Art or not. You seemed to miss that scrap of information.

They have an entire taped tour of his mansion. You can see the secret rooms full of ridiculous stuff. I know he did it. More than a few times.

I'm not celebrating his death. But if I were molested by someone, I'd be glad they were dead. So I'm happy for his victims.

1 point

Do I not write English????

I already explained that the jury has to abide by the laws of the court. They could only go off of certain evidence. Had i been on the jury I might of had to find him innocent based of the presented evidence. But as a person seeing all of the evidence out there, and the things he's said, I'm able to arrive at my own opinion.

Plus, I said his music doesn't forgive his molestation. Not that his music wasn't good or that he wasn't an icon. But I will never hear his music again without being reminded that he was sick, and didn't get help.

He could have gotten therapy, as all child molesters should. But he didn't. He didn't think it was a problem.

I think that you're having been molested so much makes it difficult. This is just a theory, I'm not a psychologist and I don't mean to impose on you, but you may be identifying that it's "normal" or "okay." But it isn't. Anyone who molests a child should be put to justice and through therapy or in a support group.

...It's nothing personal if the person didn't do anything to you specifically....

I'm sorry, but I fight for the rights of children to grow up without being molested. If you think it's okay to let a molester get away with it because it wasn't done to "you specifically" then there would be a whole bunch of serial molesters still out there.

I don't like Nancy Grace as a person... but what she does is important. And what prosecutors do in the name of children's rights is important.

I don't forgive molestation, and I don't believe anyone should. I'm sorry that you as a molested person don't feel the same way.

I couldn't find specific statistics either, but I don't believe yours at the moment. Please let me know if you find something solid, I'm very interested.

This study shows that 4.8% of males were molested, and 7.7% of females. That's 1 in 20 males, and 1 in 11 or 12 females. This study is probably skewed, because it would be mostly upper or middle class kids in a college population.

1 point

It's not being anal. It's being correct. You put in quotes and italics. You acted as if I had used the word certainty. Where did you get that word? If not the film about the topic of child molestation in the same light, that used that word quite famously.

With the information I have at my disposal, yes, I am certain.

1 point

You did put words in my mouth. You just put the word certainty in my mouth, and I never used the word "certainty". That slip makes me think you're only doubting me because you might have watched the movie Doubt, and now you might think this is the same situation. If that's the case, it isn't the same situation and you need to check yourself.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/michaeljackson/010605jacksonhouse.html

You just don't have all that stuff, and the accusations, without something nasty going on. No sane person does that! It's wrong and sick. That's how I know he did it. If you'd like to come up with anything that says that crap was planted, or something else, I might be able to change my mind. But he was a whack job child molester as my opinion stands today. Nothing I have seen has said otherwise.

1 point

Well the point is that difference in opinion is what this debate is about.

So really we could both just take our own opinions and shoove them. Because yours doesn't matter to me, and mine doesn't matter to you. So I think were done.

1 point

Again, I don't want anyone to be a pedophile. Of corse I wish he was innocent. His creep factor is a big deal. It's the creepy things he said and did with children in broad daylight, along with accusations brought on by the now older children that are what I call creepy.

And again, you continue to tell me what I believe, which is false. I have asked before, and I will ask again for you to not do that. My opinion is not based on a disbelief in the court system. Yes, the courts make mistakes. I believe that juries have far less evidence than is actually available. They are bound to make decisions only on evidence brought to them in the trial. If I had been a jury member I might of had to find him innocent based on that evidence alone. But I wasn't. I can base my opinion on the things I know to be true. That includes things not presented in court. Like what he said about how beautiful it is to tale children to bed with you, the secret doors to rooms that seemed to be set up to molest boys, the testemony of the families and boys who were traumatized by him. I believe them. I feel for them. And now I'm glad for them that he is dead.

Courts have to abide by certain rules. Innocent until prooven guilty. That keeps us protected from false imprisonment. But it also keeps a lot of criminals free too. I think that was the case with Michael Jackson.

If you reply to this, do not misinterpret my words for your own benefit. I won't take it anymore. And also, when you accused me of it, I had simple states that charity does not forgive pedophilia, not that you had said that.

1 point

Do you always trust a courts findings? Are

Juryies and judges always right? In my opinion, they make mistakes.

It's intuition. I have a right to an opinion that differs from from yours. We all have access to them same information on a lot of issues. There is enough evidence out there for me to know that he did it.

"Speculation" is just a negative word that you are using to make it seem like none of the evidence is of value because the court found him innocent. Well the "Speculation" I go off is the nasty stuff that he has said, and the creepy things he does. You can convict others with less than we had on him.

And no, you could convince me he didn't do it. If you had proof. But no one has proof either way. Most of the evidence was testemony. I can make my own opionion based off of that, and more than that. And based off everything I know, I know he did it.

1 point

No matter how much good you do, you can always do more. Any money towards a castle could have gone towards helping indigent children or others.

And PS, Charity doesn't forgive child molestation, nothing does.

For you, the fact that he had enough money to get away with it, is enough proof.

That's not what I said at all. I'm saying that in his particular situation, his money and fame worked in his favor.

My opinions are based on what he has said, and what vibes he gave off. He fit the profile of a serial molester. He was creepy, and had the opportunities.

I know he did it.

So basically, whatever the facts, you WANT him to be guilty regardless.

I don't want anyone to be a child molester. I just want those who are held accountable for it.

What is your's based on?

My opinion is based on his actions, and on the weird creepy things he has said about sleeping with children. You call it rumor, I call it victims speaking out for their rights not not be violated as children.

A recurring theme in your last argument was that you rephrased all of my arguments. Nothing you said I said or thought, was true. Please refrain from this practice in the future.

1 point

Right back at you.

I have my opinions, which you refused to accept or even entertain. You just have this ideal that life should be painless for all animals. That's not life.

1 point

That's pretty selfish. You could do a lot of good with that money, too. And yes, he had enough money to get away with molesting children quite a few times. He had enough money to lure them there, to abuse them and their families. To cover it up. And to get away with it.

He molested children.

You have your opinion, and I have mine. There really isn't anything I can do to change yours, because obviously his music was so great it forgives pedophilia.

But, all in all, yesterday was a good day for his victims, and society.

0 points

So was OJ.

But really I know he did it. You don't have secret rooms in your theme park mansion, and multiple accusations without something funky going on.

2 points

I got 3 minutes into that before I tuned out. I'm actually pretty proud.

If a man has enough time to dress up, and make a you tube video about how angry he is that we accommodate the values that the country was founded on, then he should have enough time to do something constructive, instead. Like, iunno.

Volunteer to teach an ESL class to immigrants.

Being supportive and welcoming is always better than being a whiny bitch. Let them pay taxes, let them educate their children, let them thrive.

Maybe then we'll have enough workers to support social security and medicaid.

0 points

I have a zero tolerance policy with sex offenders.

I'm not morning the loss of this man. Music is a beautiful thing, but it's not worth forgiving a child molester for.

1 point

What I stated to begin with was an opinion. I've made my life decisions based on a lot of experience and with a deep respect for and love of animals. I hope you can understand that I live in reality and you live in your own.

1 point

Duuuuhhhhhuuuhhhh!

That's why I specified local beekeepers, known as hobbyists. Commercial beekeeping is essentially factory farming. I have done nothing but denounce factory farming.

Who do you think the biggest opponents of commercial beekeping are? It's the hobbyists.

Also, I didn't say we should eat meat all the time and as much as we do. I've already stated it should be a side dish. If we reduced the intake of meat, we could support the entire world on a omnivore diet.

I don't advocate 5lb stakes with a side of stake. Just like a salad with two tablespoons of tuna made with hummus. Or a stir friend veggie plate and a half a breast of chicken. We eat too much meat for our own good right now, yes. But that doesn't mean we have to.

1 point

We should kill more than we can eat, but we shouldn't be stuffing it in our mouths either.

Animals were here before us. They weren't "given" to us.

2 points

But those eggs that are unfertilized then go to waste.

Bees produce honey to feed off of during the winter. But they make much much more than they will ever need. They are also having a rough time right now, with everything that contributes to CCD. Because of hobbyist beekeepers honey bee populations are stabilizing on the west coast. And they are also placed in places that pollinate their environment so that plants can thrive too.

And while cows don't mind being milked, they might mind being mechanically raped to become impregnated so they'll begin to produce milk, then having their babies taken from them to go their separate ways (if they're female, they'll have the same fate as their mother; if they're male, they're turned into veal), then being hooked up to machines that cut their udders and fill the milk with blood and pus. And, actually, the US allows more pus in milk than any other nation, I believe.

That's factory farming, again. And organic, free range farming isn't bullshit. Cows don't have to be raped to get pregnant. They can also be milked by hand, and that's the kind of milking I was talking about.

And even in organic farms, yeah, we eat the males. It's for the good of the heard.

Animals, human and non-human, do not exist to serve others.

That sounds pretty selfish. We serve the animals. We care for calves abandoned by their mothers. We treat their wounds and illnesses. We find food for them in drought or flood. It sounds like you underestimate the value of teamwork.

Think of it as mutual earthling support.

1 point

Well la de freakin' da.

Why not eat unfertilized eggs? Why not eat local honey that is grown by respectful and careful beekeepers who take care of their hives?

PS. Cows don't mind being milked.


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